caught up
speakining/writing in terms of the hypothetical, in order to gain an understanding that, what I currently know could be wrong (The existance of God is a wholly seperate issue) - I am in one of two camps:
1. left on the earth - (assuming the more common pre-trib Rapture doctrine) I would probably have a bit of a challenge with my being left behind, and then I would then go about the business of being a zealot and extremist for God. (since I will probably get tortured and martyred anyway, might as well continue and go with a bang. I know that my faith would absolutely NOT be shaken, though)
2. taken - (again assuming a pre-trib rapture doctrine) I would have empathy/sympathy for those left. Since I would be in heaven at that time, I would not be alloweed to communicate to those on the earth, so I would make myself look to higher and better ways of living in a new and different real of existance.
Rapturists - Please do not take offence at what I am going to say (I hope that we can just agree to disagree). It is not meant to be offensive. It is my personal opinion and based on what I know from my own personal studies.
My stance on this whole subject (If I may stray from the actual topic a bit, though still remaining within the scope of the original thread) is that I personally have a problem with a god that would snatch "his people" from a world and a mess that, for the most part, they made for themselves, and almost litteraly "to hell" with the rest of the people.
I have always understood that God uses His Holy Spirit to lead an guide people. and that the removal of His Spirit would be extremely detramental to the psyche and fibre of the Human existence. So removing His "working agent" on teh earth, effectively removes grace and mercy.
Granted "in those days", the Gospel is to have reached everyone (litteraly) on the face of the planet and they will have "made their choice"; but The God I study is one of Grace, Mercy and lovingkindness for His "children". Yes disciplien too, but not punishment.
I just don't get some of the thought processes. In the "days of Noah", for example, it was the wicked that "went away" and the "rightious" (actually pure in lineage, but that is another topic) that "went through" a time of trouble (tribulation). There is another thought in that doctrine that is basically that when satan gets really mad, there will be this "great" tribulation, and nothing (not even God) can stop it. I don't see any precidence for this kind of thing, Biblicaly speaking. Isn't God more powerfull than that? I am not saying that we aren't having tribiulations or that there is not going to be tribulations.
I could be wrong in some of those thoughts; originally, I was raised in a fundamental Baptist church and "flying away to glory" was the topic of most sermons, especially if you didn't want to "get hit by a truck when you walked out the door"! So I think I know some about the doctrine.
If I remember correctly in my studies of the origination of the doctrine, it wasn't untill the early 1800's that this doctrine was even introduced, and I believe it was Scofield (sp?) that brought it to the US (otherwise was only known in Scotland, and parts of england, I believe). Sorry, I just can't see it happening.
As a matter of fact, this was a question on a final exam (the professor was a "rapturist") in one of my graduate classes in Christian education, and as I explained that I could find no definitive Biblical reference for this event (and gave my reasons and other information), I still aced the exam.
Because I had studied and had an answer based on facts that I had draw from the Bible and made my own conclusion, it was not counted incorrect. (the qestion asked for Bible references about the rapture - my answer said that there wasn't any) The rest of the class had quoted the typical scriptures that are used to defend the doctrine. I used those scriptures in exegetical expose to show that they had other contextual information.
I know that there are those that believe in a mid, post or even multiple "rapture" event(s), and I appologize for leaving out my personal comments about them, but the pre-trib is by far the most common of the view, and I think you can get the gist of what I am sayinhg, even if you disagree with me.
What do you think of 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51, 52?
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Okay, firstly le me say that when I quote a scripture, I will be using the NASB, since it is the version that is most widely accepted my theologans and Bible scholars as the more accurate translatory version. I will also be referencing some Koine Greek. I use a pretty standard Nestle-Aland (27th), wich is again th emore popular version used by theologans and Bible scholars. I have others If you want, but the basic foundation of the original Koine Greek is from the Stephens Textus Receptus (1550), so the morphological constraints are the same.
You are absolutely right in quoting I Thess. 4:17, since this is really the only accepted scripture used in justifying the "rapture doctrine". 1 cor. 15:51-52, is actually in reference to "the ressurection doctrine", not necessarily the same thing. let me explain further...
Firstly remember what I already said that previous to about the early 1800's, there was no rapture doctrine. Prior to that, those scriptures were also used in reference to the "ressurection".
Previous to the early 1800's, it was common that theologans believed that the church would go through many tribulations, including a "final" tribulation. and that there was no special escape-clause built in teh Word of God. St. Augastine wrote in reference to Daniel 12, "But he who reads this passage, even half asleep cannot fail to see that the kindom of antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the church." ("The city of God").
John Wycliff said, "Wherefore let us pray to God that He keep us in the hour of temptation, which is comming upon all the world. ("Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliff). John Calvin and Martin Luther had very similar things to say in some of their writings.
Anyone know who Dale Moody is? - "There is not a passage in the New testament to support Scofield. The call to John to 'come up hither' has reference to mystical ecstasy and not a pretribulation rapture." ("Spirit of the Living God"). I think I mentioned that it was Scofield that brought the doctrine to the US, didn't I?
Some other quotables that might be interesting to read, but that are not widely published: C.S.Lovette - "I no longer teach Christians they will not have to go through the tribulation". (PC, 1974) Billy Graham - "Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known." (San Shoemakers, Under New management).
I am not sure if many know who Corrie TenBoom is, but here is what she had to say, "The rapture is a false teaching that Jesus warned us to expect in latter days." (Logos Journal, 1974)
The verses...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
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Let's key in in verse 17, since that is the crucial Rapture verse of being caught up. Let me first reiterate that the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible anywhere. If you have studied rapturist doctrine you may say that the latin word rapio may be found. I will say, though that the original was written in Greek, not latin and that the latin translations (vulgate, especially) was translated from the textus receptus Greek! (besides the fact that the latin "rapio" actually translates to english as "rape". (to seize and to take by force).
The words used are caught up. in the Greek, there is no "up", just the word Harpadzo - to seize, to take, also translated as pluck, to make as one, or the lesser being invelloped by the greater and take by force, in other scriptures. There is no reference to flying away at this point. then we go further to read about clouds, translated elsewhere using the same greek word usage as meaning witnesses, or a multitude of witnesses.
Going further we read, to meet the Lord in the air. This air is the same greek word as air in many other scriptures, meaning the air you breath, or speak (aer) , the air the birds fly in (ouranos). the contexts and concepts with other scriptures using the same word is that we are in teh air when we speak to eachother (aer), the same word used in this scripture.
I dont' know if I am making any sence, since I am trying to be brief, and the doctrine has been "taught" to so many for so loong, and has been an accepted part of "Christianity" for a long time, it is difficult to keep an open mind and not believe in something and then find a scripture to back it up!
okay - back to it (I'll explain as I go)... Verse 13 is primarily about the departed/dead "saints" in Christ. it is saying that you should not grieve like teh ones that have no hope (teh saducees didn't believe in teh ressurection, the pharasies did). No hope in teh ressurection. verse 14 - yup, I think that all "Christians" can agree that Jesus Died and rose again. Those that are dead in Christ will have a ressurection.
on to verse 15 - talking about Bible believers, we won't have any advantage or preceed teh dead (in Christ). verse 16, teh lord himself will decend from heaven (according to Acts 1:11, he will return in like manner as he left. He went from earth to heaven, so he will come directlyl from heaven to earth. no rapture back to heaven and then later a third comming) - anyway to go further we still are talking about the ressurection (anistemi), a the trumpet call of God.
then we go back to my breakdown of verse 17 above. - which is also in reference to the ressurrection as in 1 cor. 15:51-52. and so we shal be with the lord (forever) in the air, on this earth. - then the final bit about reassuring eachother (believers) with these words about the ressurection.
Many non-rapturists believe that harpadzo can be translated as "made one". with that kind of meaning and context such that we would be made one with Christ, speaking of simple unity, adn answering the prayer of Jesus in John 17:21-23:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then, it was posed to me:
Plz provide proof that the rapture is a lie.....
If u can i will personally eat my HAT...and show pictures....
"Prove"? how? I am not sure what you are asking. what could I write in a post that would "prove" to you that there is no rapture?
I could list some "big name" theologeans that don't believe in it. I could tell you where research has shown where it started. I could give dates of about when it came to the United States and by what people, and could show you some Greek studies of context, but the bottom line is that you would have to believe me or - do some research on your own and study it out for yourself (with no preconcieved ideas of making a scripture fit a doctrine, rather than having a doctrine based on scriptures that compare and confirm with other scriptures.) - oh, wait - I already did some of that.
I don't think I will try any more than I already have. I don't think that anything I post will make a difference.
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Jesus said in John 17:15 - I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just because I don't believe in the rapture doctrine does not mean I would make fun of, or put down someone who does (especially because, years ago, I used to believe in it as well, and know exactly where they are comming from). I try to explain the best I can and with as much non-alienationing (is that a word) as I can. To me, this is a non-direct-soteriological issue, and should not be a reason for seperation.
Revelation 7:9-14
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying,
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
First the scriptures in reference to might, or might not have the same “meaning” for some as they do for me. I guess, I am of the camp that context has something to do with the reference and that the scriptures were not initially “cut-up” into verses and sub-topics (as many Bible version now do).
For example, the Bible version I quoted above makes a topical separation between verses 8 and 9 (previous verses topic called “A remnant of Israel”, and the topic of the verses you quote – “A multitude from the tribulation”). I personally, try to “block” out all those non-biblical and not-in-the-original, topics when reading and studying, since they are not God’s word.
In any case, verse 9 says “after these things”; after what things? It is pretty obvious to me that it is talking about the previous section of the written text, so I do happen to hold that the “multitude which no one could count” is the same as the peoples listed in the tribes in the previous verses.
Then it seems that you key in on verse 14, in that these (whoever we may decide they are) are the “raptured” ones. I am going to have to disagree with your analysis. Based on several studies, and in contextual reference, and the following verses, make it pretty clear that these folks are at that location for the described event, but nothing more, other than they have gone through at least some kind of hardship at one point or another.
(Oh, and on a rabbit trail, the number 144,000 may not even be an actual physical number, but more of a numerological representation. 12x12x1,000 – 12 representing God’s divine order and the number 1,000 representing multitudes, or even any “large” number – again, a different topic)
Back to the ones that have “come out of” the tribulation. Firstly, I would like to mention that the word tribulation isn’t even there in the Greek (as in other scriptures). Rather it references a harassment, or affliction, or if you want to be literal, it could also be referring to a squashing with pressure.
I believe it is being figurative in the word usage and thus an affliction or hardship. Of course it is used in descriptive terms with “megales”, from the root – “megas” (Greek), meaning heavy, or powerful or just plain great. So – a powerful affliction or a lot of troubles and hardships.
I still don’t see a correlation of the “coming out” of this trouble and a catching/snatching away, as in the rapture teachings. There is no precedent. The scriptures are simply stating that there is a group of people (again, whoever that may be), that will come out of a time of trouble. To me, there is connotation of this group having been through troubled times and not being raptured, or escaping from it.
The scripture can just as easily be saying (as I believe), that these people, who have been through some hardships and troubling times, now are at this location and event, that is being described, there is nothing spectacular or clearly evident that is referencing a physical removal from the troubles and placing them in this location. The word usage is not the same as elsewhere in the Bible, as in the 8th chapter of Acts when Philip was “snatched” away and he found himself in a different location.
I am not here to dissuade anyone; only to express my understanding and feelings of the subject. I had answered many emails already, but since it was posted publicly, I replied in like fashion. I don’t believe the given scriptures, taken in context, are representative in any way of God “snatching”, or transfiguring, or metamorphosing anyone.
And for the “multitude” (pun intended – hehehee) of emails asking me to prove the rapture will not happen, I can give some, but be aware that, again, I am not trying to dissuade anyone, just responding to questions. I believe that it is up to us to use our free-will to choose what we want to believe:
• Luke 17:26, 27, 34-36 – The righteous were prepared and went through the troubles, they were not translated out of them.
• Matt. 13:24-30, 37-43 – the tares were destroyed, the wheat remained.
• Matt. 13:47-50 – good remained, bad tossed.
• Psalm 125:1, 2 Cor. 9:9
• Prov. 2:21-22, Psalm 145:20, 2 peter 3:7
• Prov 10:30, 11:31
• Psalm 108:8, 119:119
• Prov. 25:4-5, Isa. 5:24, 29:5
• Job 21:18, 38:13, Heb. 12:27
• Mal. 4:1, Psalm 23:4-5
• John 17:15, Psalm 37:29
• Ezek. 9:4-6, Rev. 9:4
• Isa. 1:28, 13:9, 43:2
Are just some examples.
This topic could be discussed on many sides and until Jesus returns (do we all agree He is returning at one point or another?!) and even then, some would still probably disagree. The pre, mid, post and even multi rapture teachings are argued (unfortunately) a lot among Christians and are as volatile a topic as the Creation vs. Evolution topic on other forums and web sites.
1. left on the earth - (assuming the more common pre-trib Rapture doctrine) I would probably have a bit of a challenge with my being left behind, and then I would then go about the business of being a zealot and extremist for God. (since I will probably get tortured and martyred anyway, might as well continue and go with a bang. I know that my faith would absolutely NOT be shaken, though)
2. taken - (again assuming a pre-trib rapture doctrine) I would have empathy/sympathy for those left. Since I would be in heaven at that time, I would not be alloweed to communicate to those on the earth, so I would make myself look to higher and better ways of living in a new and different real of existance.
Rapturists - Please do not take offence at what I am going to say (I hope that we can just agree to disagree). It is not meant to be offensive. It is my personal opinion and based on what I know from my own personal studies.
My stance on this whole subject (If I may stray from the actual topic a bit, though still remaining within the scope of the original thread) is that I personally have a problem with a god that would snatch "his people" from a world and a mess that, for the most part, they made for themselves, and almost litteraly "to hell" with the rest of the people.
I have always understood that God uses His Holy Spirit to lead an guide people. and that the removal of His Spirit would be extremely detramental to the psyche and fibre of the Human existence. So removing His "working agent" on teh earth, effectively removes grace and mercy.
Granted "in those days", the Gospel is to have reached everyone (litteraly) on the face of the planet and they will have "made their choice"; but The God I study is one of Grace, Mercy and lovingkindness for His "children". Yes disciplien too, but not punishment.
I just don't get some of the thought processes. In the "days of Noah", for example, it was the wicked that "went away" and the "rightious" (actually pure in lineage, but that is another topic) that "went through" a time of trouble (tribulation). There is another thought in that doctrine that is basically that when satan gets really mad, there will be this "great" tribulation, and nothing (not even God) can stop it. I don't see any precidence for this kind of thing, Biblicaly speaking. Isn't God more powerfull than that? I am not saying that we aren't having tribiulations or that there is not going to be tribulations.
I could be wrong in some of those thoughts; originally, I was raised in a fundamental Baptist church and "flying away to glory" was the topic of most sermons, especially if you didn't want to "get hit by a truck when you walked out the door"! So I think I know some about the doctrine.
If I remember correctly in my studies of the origination of the doctrine, it wasn't untill the early 1800's that this doctrine was even introduced, and I believe it was Scofield (sp?) that brought it to the US (otherwise was only known in Scotland, and parts of england, I believe). Sorry, I just can't see it happening.
As a matter of fact, this was a question on a final exam (the professor was a "rapturist") in one of my graduate classes in Christian education, and as I explained that I could find no definitive Biblical reference for this event (and gave my reasons and other information), I still aced the exam.
Because I had studied and had an answer based on facts that I had draw from the Bible and made my own conclusion, it was not counted incorrect. (the qestion asked for Bible references about the rapture - my answer said that there wasn't any) The rest of the class had quoted the typical scriptures that are used to defend the doctrine. I used those scriptures in exegetical expose to show that they had other contextual information.
I know that there are those that believe in a mid, post or even multiple "rapture" event(s), and I appologize for leaving out my personal comments about them, but the pre-trib is by far the most common of the view, and I think you can get the gist of what I am sayinhg, even if you disagree with me.
What do you think of 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51, 52?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, firstly le me say that when I quote a scripture, I will be using the NASB, since it is the version that is most widely accepted my theologans and Bible scholars as the more accurate translatory version. I will also be referencing some Koine Greek. I use a pretty standard Nestle-Aland (27th), wich is again th emore popular version used by theologans and Bible scholars. I have others If you want, but the basic foundation of the original Koine Greek is from the Stephens Textus Receptus (1550), so the morphological constraints are the same.
You are absolutely right in quoting I Thess. 4:17, since this is really the only accepted scripture used in justifying the "rapture doctrine". 1 cor. 15:51-52, is actually in reference to "the ressurection doctrine", not necessarily the same thing. let me explain further...
Firstly remember what I already said that previous to about the early 1800's, there was no rapture doctrine. Prior to that, those scriptures were also used in reference to the "ressurection".
Previous to the early 1800's, it was common that theologans believed that the church would go through many tribulations, including a "final" tribulation. and that there was no special escape-clause built in teh Word of God. St. Augastine wrote in reference to Daniel 12, "But he who reads this passage, even half asleep cannot fail to see that the kindom of antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the church." ("The city of God").
John Wycliff said, "Wherefore let us pray to God that He keep us in the hour of temptation, which is comming upon all the world. ("Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliff). John Calvin and Martin Luther had very similar things to say in some of their writings.
Anyone know who Dale Moody is? - "There is not a passage in the New testament to support Scofield. The call to John to 'come up hither' has reference to mystical ecstasy and not a pretribulation rapture." ("Spirit of the Living God"). I think I mentioned that it was Scofield that brought the doctrine to the US, didn't I?
Some other quotables that might be interesting to read, but that are not widely published: C.S.Lovette - "I no longer teach Christians they will not have to go through the tribulation". (PC, 1974) Billy Graham - "Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known." (San Shoemakers, Under New management).
I am not sure if many know who Corrie TenBoom is, but here is what she had to say, "The rapture is a false teaching that Jesus warned us to expect in latter days." (Logos Journal, 1974)
The verses...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's key in in verse 17, since that is the crucial Rapture verse of being caught up. Let me first reiterate that the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible anywhere. If you have studied rapturist doctrine you may say that the latin word rapio may be found. I will say, though that the original was written in Greek, not latin and that the latin translations (vulgate, especially) was translated from the textus receptus Greek! (besides the fact that the latin "rapio" actually translates to english as "rape". (to seize and to take by force).
The words used are caught up. in the Greek, there is no "up", just the word Harpadzo - to seize, to take, also translated as pluck, to make as one, or the lesser being invelloped by the greater and take by force, in other scriptures. There is no reference to flying away at this point. then we go further to read about clouds, translated elsewhere using the same greek word usage as meaning witnesses, or a multitude of witnesses.
Going further we read, to meet the Lord in the air. This air is the same greek word as air in many other scriptures, meaning the air you breath, or speak (aer) , the air the birds fly in (ouranos). the contexts and concepts with other scriptures using the same word is that we are in teh air when we speak to eachother (aer), the same word used in this scripture.
I dont' know if I am making any sence, since I am trying to be brief, and the doctrine has been "taught" to so many for so loong, and has been an accepted part of "Christianity" for a long time, it is difficult to keep an open mind and not believe in something and then find a scripture to back it up!
okay - back to it (I'll explain as I go)... Verse 13 is primarily about the departed/dead "saints" in Christ. it is saying that you should not grieve like teh ones that have no hope (teh saducees didn't believe in teh ressurection, the pharasies did). No hope in teh ressurection. verse 14 - yup, I think that all "Christians" can agree that Jesus Died and rose again. Those that are dead in Christ will have a ressurection.
on to verse 15 - talking about Bible believers, we won't have any advantage or preceed teh dead (in Christ). verse 16, teh lord himself will decend from heaven (according to Acts 1:11, he will return in like manner as he left. He went from earth to heaven, so he will come directlyl from heaven to earth. no rapture back to heaven and then later a third comming) - anyway to go further we still are talking about the ressurection (anistemi), a the trumpet call of God.
then we go back to my breakdown of verse 17 above. - which is also in reference to the ressurrection as in 1 cor. 15:51-52. and so we shal be with the lord (forever) in the air, on this earth. - then the final bit about reassuring eachother (believers) with these words about the ressurection.
Many non-rapturists believe that harpadzo can be translated as "made one". with that kind of meaning and context such that we would be made one with Christ, speaking of simple unity, adn answering the prayer of Jesus in John 17:21-23:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then, it was posed to me:
Plz provide proof that the rapture is a lie.....
If u can i will personally eat my HAT...and show pictures....
"Prove"? how? I am not sure what you are asking. what could I write in a post that would "prove" to you that there is no rapture?
I could list some "big name" theologeans that don't believe in it. I could tell you where research has shown where it started. I could give dates of about when it came to the United States and by what people, and could show you some Greek studies of context, but the bottom line is that you would have to believe me or - do some research on your own and study it out for yourself (with no preconcieved ideas of making a scripture fit a doctrine, rather than having a doctrine based on scriptures that compare and confirm with other scriptures.) - oh, wait - I already did some of that.
I don't think I will try any more than I already have. I don't think that anything I post will make a difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus said in John 17:15 - I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just because I don't believe in the rapture doctrine does not mean I would make fun of, or put down someone who does (especially because, years ago, I used to believe in it as well, and know exactly where they are comming from). I try to explain the best I can and with as much non-alienationing (is that a word) as I can. To me, this is a non-direct-soteriological issue, and should not be a reason for seperation.
Revelation 7:9-14
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying,
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
First the scriptures in reference to might, or might not have the same “meaning” for some as they do for me. I guess, I am of the camp that context has something to do with the reference and that the scriptures were not initially “cut-up” into verses and sub-topics (as many Bible version now do).
For example, the Bible version I quoted above makes a topical separation between verses 8 and 9 (previous verses topic called “A remnant of Israel”, and the topic of the verses you quote – “A multitude from the tribulation”). I personally, try to “block” out all those non-biblical and not-in-the-original, topics when reading and studying, since they are not God’s word.
In any case, verse 9 says “after these things”; after what things? It is pretty obvious to me that it is talking about the previous section of the written text, so I do happen to hold that the “multitude which no one could count” is the same as the peoples listed in the tribes in the previous verses.
Then it seems that you key in on verse 14, in that these (whoever we may decide they are) are the “raptured” ones. I am going to have to disagree with your analysis. Based on several studies, and in contextual reference, and the following verses, make it pretty clear that these folks are at that location for the described event, but nothing more, other than they have gone through at least some kind of hardship at one point or another.
(Oh, and on a rabbit trail, the number 144,000 may not even be an actual physical number, but more of a numerological representation. 12x12x1,000 – 12 representing God’s divine order and the number 1,000 representing multitudes, or even any “large” number – again, a different topic)
Back to the ones that have “come out of” the tribulation. Firstly, I would like to mention that the word tribulation isn’t even there in the Greek (as in other scriptures). Rather it references a harassment, or affliction, or if you want to be literal, it could also be referring to a squashing with pressure.
I believe it is being figurative in the word usage and thus an affliction or hardship. Of course it is used in descriptive terms with “megales”, from the root – “megas” (Greek), meaning heavy, or powerful or just plain great. So – a powerful affliction or a lot of troubles and hardships.
I still don’t see a correlation of the “coming out” of this trouble and a catching/snatching away, as in the rapture teachings. There is no precedent. The scriptures are simply stating that there is a group of people (again, whoever that may be), that will come out of a time of trouble. To me, there is connotation of this group having been through troubled times and not being raptured, or escaping from it.
The scripture can just as easily be saying (as I believe), that these people, who have been through some hardships and troubling times, now are at this location and event, that is being described, there is nothing spectacular or clearly evident that is referencing a physical removal from the troubles and placing them in this location. The word usage is not the same as elsewhere in the Bible, as in the 8th chapter of Acts when Philip was “snatched” away and he found himself in a different location.
I am not here to dissuade anyone; only to express my understanding and feelings of the subject. I had answered many emails already, but since it was posted publicly, I replied in like fashion. I don’t believe the given scriptures, taken in context, are representative in any way of God “snatching”, or transfiguring, or metamorphosing anyone.
And for the “multitude” (pun intended – hehehee) of emails asking me to prove the rapture will not happen, I can give some, but be aware that, again, I am not trying to dissuade anyone, just responding to questions. I believe that it is up to us to use our free-will to choose what we want to believe:
• Luke 17:26, 27, 34-36 – The righteous were prepared and went through the troubles, they were not translated out of them.
• Matt. 13:24-30, 37-43 – the tares were destroyed, the wheat remained.
• Matt. 13:47-50 – good remained, bad tossed.
• Psalm 125:1, 2 Cor. 9:9
• Prov. 2:21-22, Psalm 145:20, 2 peter 3:7
• Prov 10:30, 11:31
• Psalm 108:8, 119:119
• Prov. 25:4-5, Isa. 5:24, 29:5
• Job 21:18, 38:13, Heb. 12:27
• Mal. 4:1, Psalm 23:4-5
• John 17:15, Psalm 37:29
• Ezek. 9:4-6, Rev. 9:4
• Isa. 1:28, 13:9, 43:2
Are just some examples.
This topic could be discussed on many sides and until Jesus returns (do we all agree He is returning at one point or another?!) and even then, some would still probably disagree. The pre, mid, post and even multi rapture teachings are argued (unfortunately) a lot among Christians and are as volatile a topic as the Creation vs. Evolution topic on other forums and web sites.
posted by RamboPreacher | 7:32 AM
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